Best Combat Optics [Archive] - 6.5 Grendel Forum : : For the 6.5 Grendel Aficionado (2023)

stanc

03-10-2014, 04:23 PM

For a 6.5 Grendel carbine, which optical sight do you think is best suited for engagement distances which vary from CQB to 600 meters or more? Please give the reason(s) for your choice.

http://www.shopalexanderarms.com/img-page_9_16-inch_tactical_series_m4_rif.jpg

LRRPF52

03-10-2014, 05:10 PM

Elcan 1.5-6x Specter DR is nice. The dot is bright enough for CQM/CQB, and the glass and reticle are great for distance.

http://swfa.com/images/elcan_dotcrosshair_popup.jpg

For longer distances, I would go with higher magnification in a compact tube, like the NightForce 2.5-10x24.

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/mstn/MSTNSPR-2.jpg

cst

03-10-2014, 05:27 PM

there is no such animal that will do everything perfectly... depends on your budget too... I'd get the NF 2-10 and mount a mini redot like Dr.optic\trijicon at 45degrees.2x will do great for fast 50 to 150 yards. the 10 would be great for target ID and less than Minute of man sized targets out past 600. the mini reds wont be as fast as a full size red dot but practice makes perfect.

If u can only get one...look at the Vortex 1-6x razor....but I dont think its bright enough in daylight....I wish Trijicon would make the 1-4 accupoint with 1-8 with the same bright fiber optic with tactical turrets....I guess thats what the Vcog is for

cory

03-10-2014, 05:45 PM

LRRPF52

03-10-2014, 05:51 PM

The 1-6x24 Razor HD has a more than daylight visible red dot. With the new reticles, I would throw it in there too with the VMR-2 MRAD reticle:

http://swfa.com/images/ret_rzr-g2_s_1-6x24_vmr-2_mrad_web-subten%5B1%5D.jpg

cory

03-10-2014, 06:17 PM

stanc

03-10-2014, 06:30 PM

BluntForceTrauma

03-10-2014, 06:47 PM

A corollary to this question is: Is there any reason US GIs can't have a one-power red dot in something like a compact ACOG, and then, with the flick of a lever or the twist of an eyepiece cup, zoom to 4x for longer range? I'm not an infantryman so don't have firsthand knowledge of what's required, but having an extra red dot mounted on a variable main scope seems clumsy.

Is it possible to have one optic?

John

LRRPF52

03-10-2014, 06:51 PM

A corollary to this question is: Is there any reason US GIs can't have a one-power red dot in something like a compact ACOG, and then, with the flick of a lever or the twist of an eyepiece cup, zoom to 4x for longer range? I'm not an infantryman so don't have firsthand knowledge of what's required, but having an extra red dot mounted on a variable main scope seems clumsy.

Is it possible to have one optic?

John

You mean like this?

http://www.thorgdg.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/elcan-specterdr-mounted-rifle.jpg

Already standard in SOPMOD Block II program. Has been for several years already.

http://loadoutroom.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/sopmod-b21.jpg

cory

03-10-2014, 07:08 PM

I'm not a big fan of eotech after there recent practices of confiscating military surplus optics. However, I think the HHS I could be the best option for an optic for a Marine Grunt carrying an M4 Grendel. That being said I'd like to see them develop a 6x or 5x magnifier.

The ability to rapidly switch between 1x and 6x with little effort and the ability to have flip up iron sights ready within seconds if a malfunction of the exps3 occurs is very appealing.

I'm with lrrpf52 on the nF 2.5-10x24 or maybe the new x42 for the DMR.

LRRPF52

03-10-2014, 07:22 PM

For Joe tentpeg in an AOR with average engagement distances well within 300m, Eotech or Aimpoint is all that is needed on a carbine.

Switch the AOR to mountainous terrain, desert foothills, or any terrain where average distances are over 300m, and then we drop in a heavier ratio of magnified optics or variable power on the carbines.

DM's need magnified optics in both AOR's, with the 1-6x, 1-8x, and 2.5-10x scopes being preferred. All magnified optics should have a Mil reticle or scale in them to get everyone in the Team, Squad, and Platoon on the same sheet of music when communicating target location and corrections for shot placement to each other.

BluntForceTrauma

03-10-2014, 07:49 PM

What I've understood about variable optics that start with 1x is that the Binden concept (both eyes open, red dot from a 4x optic is superimposed onto the field of vision) is better in theory than in practice, particularly at short range panic mode clearing buildings and rooms.

So I've assumed that guys don't necessarily like having a 1x in a tube-type optic, but prefer to reserve them for EOTech's and such. But then one has to add the zoom-power magnifier which, again, seems like a clumsy solution.

John

stanc

03-10-2014, 07:53 PM

You mean like this?

http://www.thorgdg.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/elcan-specterdr-mounted-rifle.jpg

Already standard in SOPMOD Block II program. Has been for several years already.
Is that the Elcan 1.5-6x Specter DR you mentioned in your first post?

cory

03-10-2014, 08:09 PM

What I've understood about variable optics that start with 1x is that the Binden concept (both eyes open, red dot from a 4x optic is superimposed onto the field of vision) is better in theory than in practice, particularly at short range panic mode clearing buildings and rooms.

So I've assumed that guys don't necessarily like having a 1x in a tube-type optic, but prefer to reserve them for EOTech's and such. But then one has to add the zoom-power magnifier which, again, seems like a clumsy solution.

John

I've owned an exps2 with magnifier (the gen before the latest), I felt like the magnifier operation was very smooth. I sold it intending to buy the HHS I, but ended up getting a good deal on an ACOG TA31F. That and the engineer/prepper in me didn't like being reliant on an electronic/batteries for a long term optic.

If eotech or anyone would develop a 5x or 6x magnifier with a milspec ranging reticle for the eotech's I'd sell this acog in pick that up in a second.

PrecisionFirearms

03-10-2014, 08:18 PM

The SpecterDR™ by ELCAN is a revolutionary optical design that combines the best of close combat and precision fire ranging features into a single, low profile dual-field-of view (DFOV) sight. SpecterDR™ 1.5-6x, with its dual-role capability gives machine gun operators and designated marksmen a sweeping 1.5x view of the battlefield for target acquisition, then allows instant switching to 6x for accurate, long range precision fire and suppression.

Situational awareness in both magnifications is improved with wider viewing angles and unmatched light transmission in low light conditions. SpecterDR™ 1.5-6x can be ordered with 5.56, 7.62 or .50Cal variable illuminated night vision compatible reticles as well.

We have these for sale. Email pf15@pf15.com for special pricing.

bwaites

03-10-2014, 08:31 PM

I'm no soldier, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn once!

3Gun games, which are probably as close as you can get to the abuse any soldiers optic will get, show that the variables have an advantage.

Then it come down to just what reticle works the best in a given situation. I'm waiting for someone to give us a good 2nd Focal plane reticle that is effective at longer ranges for estimating distance, with a usable short range dot or circle reticle. If the reticle was calibrated to give us point blank to 2-300 yards, and then hashed to give us 300-600 ranges, it would be ideal in my mind.

I've seen and played with the new Steiner, Kahles, Vortex, Leupold, Bushnell, and IOR options, and each has some great ideas, but none are ideal to me. None of the more expensive models have enough advantage to make me sell my Vortex 1-6 yet.

The Kahles has a very interesting reticle, but its still not perfect from my viewpoint.

stanc

03-10-2014, 08:33 PM

...I've assumed that guys don't necessarily like having a 1x in a tube-type optic, but prefer to reserve them for EOTech's and such. But then one has to add the zoom-power magnifier which, again, seems like a clumsy solution.
I came across this video, which at least partially addresses your concerns. Background music is annoying, but I found the comparison testing informative.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YnaP8c-bSQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YnaP8c-bSQ

LRRPF52

03-10-2014, 08:42 PM

Is that the Elcan 1.5-6x Specter DR you mentioned in your first post?

That's the 1-4x. It has a lever on the side that switches from 1-4x when you throw it.

The 1x magnification is very usable, and quality tubes have very little FOV distortion. Combined with a daylight visible red dot, and you have a combo RDS/magnified optic that works in both roles well.

stanc

03-10-2014, 09:26 PM

For Joe tentpeg in an AOR with average engagement distances well within 300m, Eotech or Aimpoint is all that is needed on a carbine.

Switch the AOR to mountainous terrain, desert foothills, or any terrain where average distances are over 300m, and then we drop in a heavier ratio of magnified optics or variable power on the carbines.
Once upon a time I tried shooting my Steyr AUG at a steel plate of about 18" diameter, distance ~400 meters (a quarter mile, as measured on the odometer of my 4x4). I didn't expect much from the 1.5X sight with its donut reticle, but I actually hit the target with three out of three shots.

stanc

03-10-2014, 09:34 PM

Elcan 1.5-6x Specter DR is nice. The dot is bright enough for CQM/CQB, and the glass and reticle are great for distance.

http://swfa.com/images/elcan_dotcrosshair_popup.jpg
The features do look good, but weight is listed as 700 grams. If I converted correctly, that's nearly three pounds. Seems pretty heavy. :(

LRRPF52

03-10-2014, 09:38 PM

Glass quality trumps magnification, but 400 meters is iron sight territory as well. For the Special Operations Target Interdiction Course POI, the first block of marksmanship training was shooting with the Palma sights on the M24 at...400m. If you couldn't group within 1.5 MOA, you would get some more one-on-one training to fix it. I was surprised at how well I could group with irons and that rifle with M118.

Eotechs are popular on carbines in SOF units because of profile, FOV, and such a small aiming point in the center of the reticle. Clip-on magnifier units are a no-go from an infantryman perspective because of the snag hazard factor, at least for me.

One little optic I like is the 1-4x GRSC, but it does not have daylight visible illumination by any stretch of the imagination. The reticle is great though.

cory

03-10-2014, 09:57 PM

1 kg = 2.2lb = 1000g

700 grams = 1.54lbs

cory

03-10-2014, 10:03 PM

.. Clip-on magnifier units are a no-go from an infantryman perspective because of the snag hazard factor, at least for me...

Valid point. However, if I'm running a 1-x optic, I'm likely running 45 degree offset iron sights or maybe an rmr. The 45 degree front sight seems like it'd present more or equal snag hazard than the clip on magnifier.

KentuckyBuddha

03-10-2014, 11:10 PM

Valid point. However, if I'm running a 1-x optic, I'm likely running 45 degree offset iron sights or maybe an rmr. The 45 degree front sight seems like it'd present more or equal snag hazard than the clip on magnifier.

Of course you can spend the three bills and get one of those flip out 45 deg can't irons.

stanc

03-10-2014, 11:16 PM

1 kg = 2.2lb = 1000g

700 grams = 1.54lbs
Thanks. I thought I had to be doing the conversion wrong. Somehow I latched onto 15.43 grams = 1 ounce.

cory

03-10-2014, 11:35 PM

Of course you can spend the three bills and get one of those flip out 45 deg can't irons.

At the moment I'm running magpul buis on a couple weaver 45 degree offset mounts. Just over $100. Now I would prefer the $260 diamondhead 45 degree offset sights.

bwaites

03-10-2014, 11:40 PM

The features do look good, but weight is listed as 700 grams. If I converted correctly, that's nearly three pounds. Seems pretty heavy. :(

700 grams is closer to 1.5 pounds, but still substantial.

KentuckyBuddha

03-10-2014, 11:52 PM

Of course you can spend the three bills and get one of those flip out 45 deg can't irons.

I have several cant mounts that I have flirted with the idea of throwing a red-dot on. But yhea, for me the diamond ones for me are CAN'T irons. : ) Even if I won the Warren Buffet March Madness billion dollar sweepstakes I am still not sure that would be what I would prefer, but for me the snag issue is unlikely to ever be of life or death significance.

WildBill3/75

03-11-2014, 12:06 AM

You could get a 4x Acog with the DR. sight on top.

I wouldn't say this is optimal since the DR is mounted so high up but it will get the job done.

stanc

03-11-2014, 12:59 AM

Variable

03-13-2014, 12:20 AM

I tried flip magnifiers, and I didn't like them. I tried Dr. Optic dots on top, side, and canted. I didn't like them either. I'd try the Elcan Specter in a heartbeat if I could afford it, but I can't.

I have aimpoints on a bunch of stuff, but use two Acogs on GP guns. I have Nightforces on long range stuff.

If I had to live with one general purpose carbine, I'd keep my M150 for now. If I had the scratch I'd jump to the Elcan though.

usmc1371

03-13-2014, 01:43 AM

usmc1371

03-13-2014, 01:53 AM

cory

03-13-2014, 01:59 AM

I took my TA31f to the range this last saturday and forgot my duct tape. The chevron was so bright that it covered up my 2" orange targets at 200 yards.

The ACOGs are a great compromise all around, but I think we can do better.

Eventually, I'm going to pick up an HHS I and do a direct side by side comparison.

waveslayer

03-13-2014, 03:36 AM

Variable

03-13-2014, 06:40 AM

How about the VCOG?

I started to get excited (especially with a single AA batt), but then the price smashed me in the face. It doesn't even have fiber illum. If I had that kind of scratch, I'd just suck it up and get the Elcan.

Variable

03-13-2014, 06:45 AM

I took my TA31f to the range this last saturday and forgot my duct tape. The chevron was so bright that it covered up my 2" orange targets at 200 yards.

The ACOGs are a great compromise all around, but I think we can do better.

Eventually, I'm going to pick up an HHS I and do a direct side by side comparison.

I agree. I keep waiting for someone to find a way around Elcans patents (I'm guessing that's the roadblock) and offer something very similar to the SpecterDR, but at a price that us mere mortals could afford. I can't glass a whole rack of boomsticks at these insane price levels. Surely somebody can come up with something equivalent eventually?

Variable

03-13-2014, 06:47 AM

Glass quality trumps magnification, but 400 meters is iron sight territory as well. For the Special Operations Target Interdiction Course POI, the first block of marksmanship training was shooting with the Palma sights on the M24 at...400m. If you couldn't group within 1.5 MOA, you would get some more one-on-one training to fix it. I was surprised at how well I could group with irons and that rifle with M118.

Eotechs are popular on carbines in SOF units because of profile, FOV, and such a small aiming point in the center of the reticle. Clip-on magnifier units are a no-go from an infantryman perspective because of the snag hazard factor, at least for me.

One little optic I like is the 1-4x GRSC, but it does not have daylight visible illumination by any stretch of the imagination. The reticle is great though.

Have you heard anything more about the Minox 1-8X you mentioned after SHOT? You piqued my interest on that one. It'll probably be out of my price range, but I can dream I guess.:)

babue

03-13-2014, 07:41 PM

I took my TA31f to the range this last saturday and forgot my duct tape. The chevron was so bright that it covered up my 2" orange targets at 200 yards.

The ACOGs are a great compromise all around, but I think we can do better.

Eventually, I'm going to pick up an HHS I and do a direct side by side comparison.

Check out the Browe Combat Optic if you are looking for an improvement on the ACOG. It measures the light at
the target and adjusts the brightness of it's chevron or crosshairs so you have the correct brightness and do not wash out your aiming point.
About the same cost as the ACOG. I am really thinking about getting one for my FS2000. I am looking at
something like a 2-8 or 2-10 for my next Grendel. I like the FS2000 for my CQB or house gun and the Grendel will be more a DMR.

http://www.browe-inc.com/categories/4x32-BROWE-Combat-Optic-%28BCO%29/

LRRPF52

03-13-2014, 07:50 PM

Have you heard anything more about the Minox 1-8X you mentioned after SHOT? You piqued my interest on that one. It'll probably be out of my price range, but I can dream I guess.:)

I don't remember mentioning anything about Minox. Must have been someone else.

I didn't get to look at much in terms of optics at this year's SHOT. I had a lot of appointments with people on things related to Grendel.

My biggest issues with ACOG's are the eye relief, way too short, and exit pupil, way too small. They make great robust scopes for soldiers for general issue that take a beating, but are not preferred by trained shooters when the option of a variable power is there.

cory

03-13-2014, 08:12 PM

Check out the Browe Combat Optic if you are looking for an improvement on the ACOG. It measures the light at
the target and adjusts the brightness of it's chevron or crosshairs so you have the correct brightness and do not wash out your aiming point.
About the same cost as the ACOG. I am really thinking about getting one for my FS2000. I am looking at
something like a 2-8 or 2-10 for my next Grendel. I like the FS2000 for my CQB or house gun and the Grendel will be more a DMR.

http://www.browe-inc.com/categories/4x32-BROWE-Combat-Optic-%28BCO%29/

Interesting, but I'd never pay that for these type of optics. For that price I can buy another Razor 1-6x or a little more I can get the NF 2.5-10x42. I got my ACOG in a barter where I was out of pocket $600 in cash. $600 is right about what I think these type of optics are worth, based on what else is available in the market.

LRRPF52

03-13-2014, 08:16 PM

That Browe is from a guy who worked at Tricon for 16 years as director of operations:

BROWE, Inc was founded in 2009 by Brian K. Browe, former Director of Operations of Trijicon, Inc. Mr. Browe has over 16 years experience in manufacturing combat and tactical optics with extensive experience in all aspects of the business. BROWE, Inc. was founded on a simple idea of building the ultimate combat optic. Two years of extensive research and development resulted in the 4x32 BROWE Combat Optic.

At first I was wondering how they are getting away with knocking off ACOG's, but it looks like there is more to the story.

WildBill3/75

03-13-2014, 08:46 PM

Check out the Browe Combat Optic if you are looking for an improvement on the ACOG. It measures the light at
the target and adjusts the brightness of it's chevron or crosshairs so you have the correct brightness and do not wash out your aiming point.
About the same cost as the ACOG. I am really thinking about getting one for my FS2000. I am looking at
something like a 2-8 or 2-10 for my next Grendel. I like the FS2000 for my CQB or house gun and the Grendel will be more a DMR.

http://www.browe-inc.com/categories/4x32-BROWE-Combat-Optic-%28BCO%29/

That looks pretty neat, the housing is made out of Ti too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSRPGaIPXXU

edit---For this price range I'd rather get a nightforce compact.

LRRPF52

03-13-2014, 09:26 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQdgE9K3ZLc

http://youtu.be/wQdgE9K3ZLc

Looks like eye relief is very short, the way Rob Pincus has it set up.

cory

03-13-2014, 10:13 PM

babue

03-13-2014, 10:27 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQdgE9K3ZLc

http://youtu.be/wQdgE9K3ZLc

Looks like eye relief is very short, the way Rob Pincus has it set up.

Eye relief is listed as the same as an ACOG. If you shop around I have seen one for just less than $1000, new
I wish I would have picked one up.
Browe started the company because he had ideas that would improve the product but Trijicon, is a large company,
that sells all it can make and was not interested.
American industry at work, if you have a better idea, go for it.

WildBill3/75

03-13-2014, 10:44 PM

Eye relief is listed as the same as an ACOG. If you shop around I have seen one for just less than $1000, new
I wish I would have picked one up.
Browe started the company because he had ideas that would improve the product but Trijicon, is a large company,
that sells all it can make and was not interested.
American industry at work, if you have a better idea, go for it.

TA11 3.5x is around 2.5" eye relief...1.5" is complete garbage and one of the reasons I'd never personally own a 4x acog.

Klem

03-14-2014, 12:27 AM

TA11 3.5x is around 2.5" eye relief...1.5" is complete garbage and one of the reasons I'd never personally own a 4x acog.

Never have liked the ACOGs for that reason. I value my eye socket too much.

explorecaves

03-14-2014, 12:36 AM

I'm going to be interested to see what the reliability is for all these electronics on the browe, particularly the sensor that adjusts the brightness of the chevron.

If it is built to mil-spec standards, I am positive it will be fine. There are plenty of surface mount photodiodes that are incredibly robust. Throw in some dense foam potting around the board/components and it can easily survive several G's of shock.

cory

03-14-2014, 01:13 AM

If it is built to mil-spec standards, I am positive it will be fine. There are plenty of surface mount photodiodes that are incredibly robust. Throw in some dense foam potting around the board/components and it can easily survive several G's of shock.

Oh I didn't doubt that. I was referring to long term use. i.e. 6-12 month deployment.

Variable

03-14-2014, 02:39 AM

Never have liked the ACOGs for that reason. I value my eye socket too much.

I'm not crazy about that part either, but I begrudgingly live with it. I use them on 5.56 and slide it as far back as I can. With a Matech or KAC BUIS I end up NTCH for a sight picture. I definitely wish they could squeak out another inch or two!

On my 14.5" Grendel I use a NF 2.5-10 instead. Unfortunately I won't be buying any more of them with their current pricing.

Variable

03-14-2014, 02:43 AM

Oh I didn't doubt that. I was referring to long term use. i.e. 6-12 month deployment.

I just looked at their .308 reticle. http://www.browe-inc.com/products/BCO%252d002---4x32-BROWE®-Combat-Optic-w%7B47%7D-7.62mm-Chevron-Reticle.html

It lists an eye relief of 37mm. That's 1.457 inch.... No thanks. I ain't putting my eye that close to a .308! ;)

Variable

03-14-2014, 03:36 AM

I don't remember mentioning anything about Minox. Must have been someone else.

I didn't get to look at much in terms of optics at this year's SHOT. I had a lot of appointments with people on things related to Grendel.

My biggest issues with ACOG's are the eye relief, way too short, and exit pupil, way too small. They make great robust scopes for soldiers for general issue that take a beating, but are not preferred by trained shooters when the option of a variable power is there.

I must be losing it. Maybe it was gr8fuldoug? I tried searching but can't find it. I thought someone said Minox was bringing out a 1-8X tactical style optic. Nevermind. I've officially gone batty these days!

Tony Williams

03-15-2014, 09:11 AM

Thanks. I thought I had to be doing the conversion wrong. Somehow I latched onto 15.43 grams = 1 ounce.

15.432 grains = 1 gram.

Drifter

03-15-2014, 11:00 AM

I thought someone said Minox was bringing out a 1-8X tactical style optic. Nevermind. I've officially gone batty these days!

Link: http://www.minox.com/index.php?id=10674&L=02

stanc

03-15-2014, 02:20 PM

Thanks. I thought I had to be doing the conversion wrong. Somehow I latched onto 15.43 grams = 1 ounce.

15.432 grains = 1 gram.
Oh, swell. So in addition to suffering from CRS, now I'm developing aixelsyd... http://www.vpsingles.com/pics/rotfl.gif

LRRPF52

03-15-2014, 02:53 PM

That Minox 1-8x looks like a very promising system:

http://www.minox.com/fileadmin/forhtml/Tactical/Absehen_MR10_plus_en.jpg

Variable

03-18-2014, 02:26 AM

Link: http://www.minox.com/index.php?id=10674&L=02

That's it! I can't remember where I saw a brief description of it posted, but anywhoo--- It got me hot and bothered!;)

My great hope is that it doesn't end up being insanely priced.....

ETA: http://www.all4shooters.com/en/specials/Trade-shows-2014/IWA-2014-new-products/optics/Minox-zp/

An MSRP of €2499!!!!!! Gee that's only $3,475.11 USD!!!!!! Aaaagggghhh!!!!:mad:

Buck2732

02-03-2017, 06:28 PM

That's it! I can't remember where I saw a brief description of it posted, but anywhoo--- It got me hot and bothered!;)

My great hope is that it doesn't end up being insanely priced.....

ETA: http://www.all4shooters.com/en/specials/Trade-shows-2014/IWA-2014-new-products/optics/Minox-zp/

An MSRP of €2499!!!!!! Gee that's only $3,475.11 USD!!!!!! Aaaagggghhh!!!!:mad:

Its come down a bit... not much.

http://www.eurooptic.com/minox-zp8-tac-1-8x24-w-mr10-reticle-66590.aspx

jonny rotton

02-03-2017, 07:36 PM

jdelong

02-03-2017, 07:44 PM