Best Optic for a Grendel ? [Archive] (2023)

kansas

11-24-2017, 12:44 AM

What is the best optic for a grendel ??

That's about like asking "what's the best foot wear for a human ?"

Are you climbing a mountain? Are you going on a creek walk? Are you going dancing? Are you male or female?
Before you buy your footwear you need to determine how you will use them!

No different for the optics for your grendel ... how will you use it ?

==
When I first got my 6.5G(18) back in early 2016, I was trying to "replace" the Sig762(16) I had sold. When I got the Sig, I was hoping it would be dual purpose, both short distance hunting and long distance target shooting. So I wanted the 6.5G(18) to do the same.

So, for most of the first year I had the 6.5G(18) I used it for hunting/critter control.

And mostly I had a Zeus 100mm 4x 640(60) on it. Here it is side by side with the 5.56(18) (the 5.56 is to the rear) ... I had the same model Zeus Pro on both of them at that point.

https://i.imgur.com/J9E41AGl.jpg

Issues with the Zeus were that is was a bit heavy, and the 4x magnification was too much. There were times I was swinging it around trying to see yotes I knew were right near me. They didn't all get away ...

https://i.imgur.com/Rnrbsxel.jpg

==
One night, I was overwatching the chicken coop with the 6.5G(18) on a tripod and a opossum headed in towards the coop ... bang, bang, Down. I decided to keep waiting and watching and within 5m a Coon headed in to the same spot. Maybe he wanted to find out what was going on. Bang, down. These were 70yd shots off the tripod point blank range, though the critters were within 50yds of the coop and despite our electric fence etc. I still worry that critters could get in ... they destroy our neighbors chickens year after year ... three neighbors have lost all their chickens in the last year ... one lost 22 (he says to a coon) 2 months ago. I take my coop defense seriously.

https://i.imgur.com/Vpsys2ol.jpg

I sold the Zeus Pro about Feb 2017 and briefly tried a Burris xtr2 1.5-8x cq mil scope. Here we are at the 500yd firing point (FP). On Manfrotto M190 tripod with 322rc-2 joystick mount.

https://i.imgur.com/IQ1vDMWl.jpg

kansas

11-24-2017, 12:45 AM

== continued due to length

Thru lens pic of the target area at 500yds

https://i.imgur.com/xvWblFIl.jpg

What I liked about this optic was the dual focal plane (the circle dot is SFP, the reticle is FFP). I thought it could be a dual purpose optic.

https://www.burrisoptics.com/sites/default/files/styles/product_detail_zoom/public/content/products/preview/subtension-charts/xtr-ii-ballistic-cq-mil-sub.png?itok=wv8E2IuT

But what I didn't like was the lack of parallax adjustment. Also, I realized I wanted to get out to 900yds and this was not enough optic to get me there. I now have it on my "test" rifle a ruger "yute" model .308WIN. I'm currently shooting subsonic thru that setup.

==

So around May 2017 I put a Burris xtr2 3-15x scr-mil on the 6.5G(18) ... this is more like it !!!

https://i.imgur.com/e0bhTBJl.jpg

On the left is the 6.5G(18) with the 3-15x on the M190 tripod at the 500yd FB ... that is the .300WM(24) to the right on M055 with xtr2 5-25x scr-mil.

I like the 3-15x on the 6.5G(18) it is shorter and lighter than the 5-25x and yet can get me to 900yds without a struggle. Also, with the 3x minimum, it is still useful for hunting though I haven't used it that way yet.

I like the scr-mil reticle a lot ... (I like a Night Force one a little better ... I'm still trying to decide about H58 / H59 style reticles ... I do have one) ... but I like the scr-mil ... I have one in the xtr2 3-15x and the xtr2 5-25x.

https://www.burrisoptics.com/sites/default/files/styles/product_detail_zoom/public/content/products/preview/subtension-charts/scr-mil-sub.png?itok=jydWFXZj

kansas

11-24-2017, 12:46 AM

== continued due to length

So to get to 900yds at night with the 6.5G(18) I decided I needed to go to a thermal clipon. So I tried two of them side by side for a couple of months.

https://i.imgur.com/Wwh7eg9l.jpg

On the right is the 5.56(18) with the Trijicon SNIPE. On the left is the 6.5G(18) with the BAE UTC-x. Both have BAE OASYS cores, though the SNIPE has the 12um and the older UTC-x has the 17um. I wanted to keep them both, but I could not find the funds, so I wound up sending the SNIPE back and keeping the UTC-x. But I stil may get a SNIPE one day. For out to 500yds maybe 600yds it is fine. I had the xtr2 1.5-8x scope on the 5.56(18) at this point and I cranked to 8x on the day scope and I could hit the heated steel at 500yds just fine off the tripod.

https://i.imgur.com/BWvlAvol.jpg?1

Note with all these night thru the lens pics ... I'm using my old camera phone and holding it manually, I have no mount for day scopes for the phone. So the pics are much worse that what the eyeball sees. Note the reticles are fuzzy, in real life they are crisp.
==

Here is thru lens pic of the heated steel at 500yds with the 6.5G(18), xtr2 3-15x scr-mil and the UTC-X with the day scope on 10x.

https://i.imgur.com/44g3NcVl.jpg

I can get to 770yds on my land off the tripod ... this is from 685yds.

https://i.imgur.com/RLE81IBl.jpg

kansas

11-24-2017, 12:46 AM

== continued due to length

Mineral feeder at 405yds with the xtr2 3-15x scr-mil and the UTC-X with the day scope on 15x.

https://i.imgur.com/CKns3Orl.jpg

Recently my shooting buddy and I went out to a ranch farther West where they have targets at 100yd increments from 500yds to 1400yds. With the .300WM(24) we were able to get to 1400yds in the day ... with the 6.5G(18) 900 yds during the day ... and with both the .300WM(24) and the 6.5(18) we were able to get to 900yds (prone) at night off our heated steel targets (we brought our own so we wouldn't have to heat the land owners). And I was able to get to 700yds off the tripod at night.

Shooting buddy setting up ... he is working with the .300WM(24) on M055 tripod. To the rear is a Leupold spotter on a tripod and farther out on the gun line is the 6.5G(18).

https://i.imgur.com/55Iz8bDl.jpg

Looking out towards the targets 500yds to 1400yds ... These are all NATO-E sized 19.5 x 40 ... that the landwoner has setup. The ones my buddy and I use are 66% sized (IPSC-D) 12-x24 silhouettes.

https://i.imgur.com/nj982pLl.jpg

In this pic you see the 600, 700, 800 and 900yd targets and that is me out there at the 700yd target applying a re-heating of the targets with a propane torch and you also see the buggy I was using to move around. The target farthest out and to the right is the 900yd target, it is fading.

https://i.imgur.com/AtX0FwPl.jpg

kansas

11-24-2017, 12:52 AM

Oh, that last pic is using my 5.56(10.3) with TEO 35mm 2.5x 640 on tripod as a spotter. We had the TEO cranked up to 4x digital, which makes it fuzzy. But, when I was on the spotter (and buddy on the WM) I could see the targets, I could see the misses, I could see the hits and I could see the bullet traces. I could see everything. So this set up WAS an effective spotter for out to 900yds. If I upgraded to the 60mm lens, ,it would be a better LR spotter, but it would be a worse coop defense thermal with 4.5x optical magnification versus the 2.5x on it now. And the 2.5x is borderline too much for coop defense.

Here is pic of the 5.56(10.3) with the TEO 35mm 2.5x 640 ... and a shooting stick I use rarely ... for help hitting targets at over 100yds.

https://i.imgur.com/YkX5Zy8l.jpg we had the TEO mounted on the spotter tripod with a PIG saddle the night we used it as a spotter thermal our at SPR.

Kind of like this ...

https://i.imgur.com/rmT1MD5l.jpg

kansas

11-24-2017, 01:36 AM

So, if you want to night hunt with your grendel, I recommend a dedicated thermal scope ... the magnification will be on the front end and the magnified image will give you 100% of your resolution. Most people like somewhere between 2x and 3x ... though even 1x works and 4x works ... personally I don't like over 3x ... but it depends on how open the terrain is. I live along a creek and unless I go up to the top of a hill ... I'm not seeing much beyond 200yds.

The pulsar line either Apex or Trail all work. The 38mm or 50mm Apex ... I've had several of each and still have a 38mm as my loaner. And the Trails are even better, though more expensive. For a budget entry level thermal the APEX 38mm or 50mm get the job done. I would avoid the lowest end scopes with the fixed focus. Only the trijicons can make the fixed focus work.

For the Trijicons, the mk2 line has 19mm and 35mm with 1.5x for the 19mm and 2.5x for the 35mm ... the newer mk3 line has 35mm at 2.5x and 60mm and 4.5x. The 19mm has 22 FOV, the 35mm has 12 FOV and the 60mm has 7 FOV ... and for me on my land with my use cases it would be inconvenient to go down to 7 FOV.

Used pulsar APEX are around $2,500.

Used mk2 19mm are mid $4,000s

==
Now I've had 5 Armasight thermals as well, but with the FLIR merger, the Armasight line seems to be in flux, not sure what FLIR is going to do. So I sold all my Armasight thermals. Nothing wrong with the gadgets, but I worry about the support. It sounds like the CS Team were all sacked.

But if FLIR gets their act together and supports the Armasight line, then I would be comfortable recommending them again. But right now I like the Pulsars for the budget minded and the Trijicons for those who want to optimize the image.

==
As to thermal Clilpons ... I don't like them for hunting. They add weight up front, which is a bad place to add weight. And every 2x of magnification on the day scope (or digital) is costing you half your resolution ... so your 640 on 1x just became a 320 on 2x ... and you lost 75% of your pixels. You want 4x? That will cost you another 75% of the remaining pixels and your 320 became a 160.
So for hunting inside 300yds ... I'd rather have the magnification on the front objective ... so I'm not zooming in on the TV screen and loosing my resolution. And with the dedicated scope my weight is back on the receiver.
The use case for the thermal clip on in my book is for long distance. The UTC-x or the FLIR T-75 (and a few others) use the "tiny screen" trick and can support 10x, 12x, 16x, even 20x ... and then you can actually use the day scope reticles for long distance, just like you would in the day time ... but all these options are military clipons and they are not free ... over $10k in all cases. The only under $10k thermal clipon I would buy is the Trijicon SNIPE that can get you to 8x on the day scope.

Now like the Pulsar 50mm clipon can do about 4x ... and that is typical of the low end thermal clipons ... so in front of an ACOG like scope they work fine. And if I only had 1 rifle, I would get a clipon like that. But I have 7 rifles, so I can keep a couple of them setup for dedicated night shooting. And the dedicated scopes have a better image and less weight and better balance.

LRRPF52

11-26-2017, 04:39 PM

This is an excellent thread. Thanks for your shared experience here.

I'm looking to get into yotes around here, as I found a place where they are like fleas.

BluntForceTrauma

11-27-2017, 09:03 PM

kansas

11-30-2017, 02:42 AM

If you will hunt with your Grendel at night, then as I said above a dedicated thermal is to be preferred. This places the magnification on the front of the scope and you will get your full resolution for the best image. So, if I was going to switch back to using my Grendel primarily for hunting, I would put a Trijicon scope on it:

https://i.imgur.com/ERnmhyDl.jpg

Shown is the Trijicon Mk3 35mm 2.5x 640
This scope can detect cattle at 2,200 ... they are blobs, but I know they are cattle due to other input.

The Trijicons use the 12um BAE OASYS cores ... which might be the best cores we normal civilians can buy. The Trijicon packages give us useful optics for hunting. The five mk3 reticles have 5, 10 and 20 mil subtensions, which are useful for rapid ranging of yotes and hogs and also useful for holding for movers ... like a critter moving at 24 MPH would be a 15 mil hold.
There are three white hot pallets and three black hot pallets as well as a seventh edge detect pallet. I mostly run on black hot #1, but switch to white hot in some conditions.
On my scope the 2x digital gives me 5x net magnification and when there is time I will switch to 5x for final shot placement. I've even switched to 10x for a couple of shots.
For long distance scanning the 5x is good and the 10x is sometimes necessary. The 10x is pretty fuzzy but still useful in some cases.
I've used the 10x for spotting for .300WM out to 900 yards on heated steel. The 10x can see the targets, the hits, the misses and the trace. Even on 4x digital, 10x net, it is a useful spotter.
I hope to buy another one - one day. I think having both a 19mm and 1 60mm might be optimal. Then I could use the 19mm for coop patrol and the 60mm for long distance spotting.

kansas

11-30-2017, 02:44 AM

Most nights when I go out on coop patrol, I just take the 5.56(10.3) with the mk3 or I take the .22lr(16) with the ODIN 17mm 1x 320 and no night vision or separate spotters.

But to go out and hunt all night, sometimes it is DARK (meaning no moon and/or sufficient clouds to obscure moon etc). In those cases we take our PVS-14s and our helmet mountable thermals our NODs (Night Observation Devices). The pvs-14 are best for navigating either on foot or on vehicles, either with glass or without. The helmet mountable thermals are best for spotting critters hands free while moving either on foot or on vehicles with no glass.

4 types of headgear shown. Ballistic helmet, Bump helmet, Crye Precision night cap and skull crusher.

https://i.imgur.com/SkfRS87h.jpg

Also in the pic are shown pvs-14 on ballistic helmet, ATN ODIN 17mm 1x 320 thermal monocular, a second PVS-14 and a PAS-29 thermal clipon. The PAS-29 clips on to a PVS-14 to provide a fused image.

Ideally, the well equipped night hunter has a pvs-14 on his head for navigation and thermal spotter and a dedicated thermal scope on his rifle.
There are a few cases where a night vision clipon can work. The people that use those shoot in more open terrain than I do and they use powerful illuminators and they worry about "no shoot" scenarios. Those are the sorts of consideration that lead some to use NV clipons for hunting. I've had a couple but I've replaced them with thermal, and at this point I'd rather spend my money on another thermal rather than an NV clipon, though I would not mind having one.

kansas

11-30-2017, 02:47 AM

Ballistic Helmet
Con - a bit heavier than the bump helmet, though by the time you put several pounds of crap on the helmets the difference between the ballistic and the bump isn't as much as you would think.

pro - I got it a size larger so I can wear thick balaklava under it in winter. It has no holes so it is drier and warmer.

==
Bump Helmet
Pro - Lighter - and smaller so fits tight with no balaklava ... though I can wear the thin ones under it. Both helmets have a knob you can turn to increase tension, but the bump helmet knob you can pull to release the tension. That is a nice feature.

Con - Can't wear thick balaklava underneath ... has holes and lets in rain and cold. The bump is the warm weather helmet, the ballistic is the cool weather helmet.

night cap
Pro very light

Con - can only take one 14 ... no way to use counterweights or attach illuminators or viz lights.
==
Skull crusher
Pro very light

Con - hurts your head (hence the name :) )
==
All the headgear shown can be used with COMTAC 3 headsets, PTT and UV5R radios
==
PVS-14s
Pro - flexible ... handheld, helmet mountable, weapons mountable behind a dot sight. Can take a 3x magnifier and be used for longer distance spotting or even 3x magnifier behind the dot sight. Long battery life. Can be used to shoot with ir-laser. Can be used to see critter eyeballs with ir-illuminators on. Ubiquituos, lots of people can work on them. Can see thru normal glass.

Con - can't see critters in all conditions, like in or behind vegetation even with illumination. Can't be used to see critters in shadows without illuminators. Don't like to be exposed to white light. Don't like to be dropped. Don't like weapon recoil.

kansas

11-30-2017, 02:50 AM

ODIN 17mm 1x 320 thermal
Pro - Has pvs-14 housing so can mount on pvs-14 dual mount. Can PID critters at 500yds, can detect out to 1200 (blobs). Can be used on weapon as dedicated thermal scope (has reticles). Works with the UNV battery pack.

Con - not the greatest image due to small lens and 320 format.

==
PAS-29 COTI 10mm 1x 320 thermal
Pro - fusion - shoot with the pvs-14 and ir laser what the thermal can see. Detect out to 800yds, PID inside 300 yards. Small and light. Simple controls. Very fast system close in.

Con - Requires frequent battery changes. Not real useful beyond 300yds - detection only.

==
IR-Illiuminators
Pro - on the helmet, they can be used in conjunction with the ir-lasers on the weapons to see the critters, the critter eyeballs and help washout any laser bloom.

Con - need to run them on min power and min focus to avoid washing out the image or the lasers.

==
3 lumen viz lights
Pro - very useful admin lights. Useful as nav lights in woods. The green is amazing in the woods. The red is visible about 10yds. So these put out useful viz light at minimum power. I also carry one in my pocket at all times.

Con - Not sure there is one - for the purpose I use them for. They are NOT tac lights !
==
==
Important points to using head mountable NODs
01 - The counterweight on the back needs to match the weight on the front. The mounts and the NODs and their internal batteries might weight as much as 5 pounds in some configurations. So the counterweight needs to be as much as 5 pounds.
02 - Need to build up your neck muscles to take the weight and keep using them so your neck doesn't get tired. Build them up and keep them built up ... go out as much as possible !!
03 - Use filters on the backs of the NODs you wear on your head. This reduces the light hitting your eyes and reduces the headaches. Before I figured this out, I did have headaches. This is especially true for the thermal which is much brighter than the pvs-14s. Also less light coming out of the backs of the NODs makes you more stealthy.
04 - Flipping up to shoot takes time and if you don't turn off first, you are pointing viz light towards the critters. My tatm mount allows me to flip out so the rears of the NODs are still pointing to the rear, don't have to turn off.
Some mounts make more noise than others when flipping up also.
You can shoot with the ir-laser and the 14 without flipping up.
05 - Thermal can't see through normal glass, so is not useful looking through the windshield of a road vehicle. 14s can see through normal glass.

kansas

11-30-2017, 03:09 AM

So you can night hunt with a Grendel with nothing but one thermal scope on your Grendel.
The pulsars run $2,500 up to around $5,000
The used Trijicons start around $4,500 and run up to around $8,000

You can put a laser on your rifle and a PVS-14 on your head and hunt like that. Total cost of a solid setup around $5k.

==
A full night hunting kit will include:
PVS-14
Thermal on rifle
Thermal spotter
==
In cases whether you are extra worried about PID, due to presence of critters you cannot shoot, you may decide a combination of a thermal spotter and a NV clipon will work best for you. This will enable you to detect and ID the critters with thermal and do final ID with the NV clipon. People worry about neighbors dogs, counting points on the deer, telling foxes from coyotes, etc.

In no environment where I night hunt can we shoot deer, so we don't have to count points ALL deer are off limits. I spend a lot of time just watching critters with thermal. PID is not just a glance, if there is any doubt, I want to watch them move. That clears things up rapidly. If there is any doubt, don't shoot it. That is a simple rule.

But some people hunt in more complex environments and they need the alternative of NV clipon and thermal spotter. The basic hog hunter can get away with just one thermal on his rifle.
The current availability of the refurb PVS-30s puts a great NV clipon within the reach of many that would night hunt. I wouldn't consider anything else for a serious NV Clipon right now due to the low price and high quality of the PVS-30 refurbs. The Luna elir-3 is a great illuminator, there are others. I'd be shooting off a tripod with that setup.

kansas

12-03-2017, 03:10 AM

PR-Infrared, where I got my UTC-x is showing $11,900 for new FLIR T-75 ... those usually have shown price of $16,900. People I've talked to that have looked thru both say the UTC has a clearer image, but if the $11,900 price had been around when I got my UTC it would've been a TOUGH choice.

And depending on who you ask, max supported day scope magnification is between 10x and 16x ... but that still makes it a long distance thermal clipon, taking you well beyond hunting distances with plenty of magnification to spare.

So if you've been waiting for the prices to drop on the long distance military thermal clipons ... it is finally happening ! Do I need a T-75 as a backup? :)

https://pr-infrared.com/product/flir-thermosight-t75-advanced-thermal-sight/#

kansas

12-03-2017, 04:45 AM

RAPTAR won't work on badger mount behind UTC ... UTC is too high.

https://i.imgur.com/usCsfaZh.jpg

So, trying 3 o'clock.

Here is my zeroing rig.

https://i.imgur.com/cmEfIqOh.jpg

Steps:

1 - Zero day scope
2 - co-witness day scope to vis laser on the RAPTAR in the house (this gets the rough zero)
3 - co-witness day scope with ir-laser on the RAPTAR outside (using 14 to look thru the day scope) as far away as possible.
4 - Test distances for known distance objects

Actually the above process was faster and easier than I expected. At first I though the distances were a little short, then I realized the RAPTAR was set to meters :D
The distances are fine.

So next I will try it in the field with the UTC on there!

bj139

12-05-2017, 01:15 PM

Wow. $17,000 to shoot coyotes.

I guess if they are eating your cows it might be worth it.

LRRPF52

12-08-2017, 03:42 PM

RAPTAR won't work on badger mount behind UTC ... UTC is too high.

https://i.imgur.com/usCsfaZh.jpg

So, trying 3 o'clock.

Here is my zeroing rig.

https://i.imgur.com/cmEfIqOh.jpg

Steps:

1 - Zero day scope
2 - co-witness day scope to vis laser on the RAPTAR in the house (this gets the rough zero)
3 - co-witness day scope with ir-laser on the RAPTAR outside (using 14 to look thru the day scope) as far away as possible.
4 - Test distances for known distance objects

Actually the above process was faster and easier than I expected. At first I though the distances were a little short, then I realized the RAPTAR was set to meters :D
The distances are fine.

So next I will try it in the field with the UTC on there!
We used to zero our optics and IR aiming devices with laser bore sights in the Army.

You can make a bore sight target with various offsets, including your 3 o'clock IR Illuminator/Pointer configuration, which is how we did it for the M4/203s.

Just make a paper with grid lines on it correlating to the offset distance from bore to optic/laser parallel POA, and make sure to never laminate the offset paper (eye damage from laser reflection).

Especially once you have your day optic confirmed zero, this can really aid in zeroing your ancillary electro-optical aiming devices for Own The Night configuration.

Another really great post Kansas.

J.Boyette

12-09-2017, 12:49 AM

Great posts,

with the BAE thermals we use swing out mounts for a Aimpoint T2 for normal use and swing the BAE infront of the AimPoint when needed. With the rifles on a monolithic upper we have up to 5 MOA swing between each flip of the thermal.

do you get any POI shifts from the mounts?

Thanks

John

kansas

12-11-2017, 12:35 AM

2017-12-10
1830-1900
40F
5 MPH NW

Goal: Check RAPTAR

Environment: clear, stars, no moon, wind from NW.

Equipment: 5.56(18), L&S 3-18x H58, PVS-14 mounted on rear of scope, later, UTC-x mounted in front. Manfrotto m055 tripod with 322RC-2 head.

The pic shows all the gear but the UTC was not mounted during the zeroing process.

https://i.imgur.com/IsO1OVqh.jpg

Activity:

STEP01 - Zero ir-laser to the reticle.
I had already zeroed the day scope at 100yds. Badger finally sent me the correct screws to mount the RAPTAR mount to the scope rings, so I did that and mounted the RAPTAR, testing in the house revealed the lasers could all see past the bell of the UTC. In the RAPTAR the three lasers, the red viz, the ir-pointer and the LRF laser all shine thru the same aperture. Though from slightly different positions.
So I had zeroed the xiz laser to the reticle in the house. That gets it close enough that when you go outside and try to zero the ir-laser at longer distance you can see it in the FOV of the scope.
When mounted at 12 o'clock on top of the scope, the adjustments just happen to work just like most day scopes. Counter clock wise on the knob on the top of the RAPTAR is "up" CW is down. For the knob on the side, turning the top of the knob towards you is right and top of the knob away is left. So this is easy to remember! So, I powered on the 14. I pointed the reticle at a mineral feeder I knew to be 415yds away and cranked the magnification all the way up to 18x. I set the selector switch on the RAPTAR to IR-laser, which is one click CCW from off. Then adjusted the ir-laser on to the center of the reticle on the mineral feeder. I Had attached the pressure switch, so I was using that to turn the laser on/off. Then I hit the range button and read 378 and did a little arithmetic and got 415 yds ! Further more, I could SEE the distance on the back of the display with my left eye, without taking my right eye off the reticle on the target. I had not expected that !!!.
I then checked a tree at 74 meters and another tree at 91 meters.

STEP02 - Test with the thermal clipon
Then I removed the 14 assembly from the back of the day scope.
And I mounted the UTC-x to the front. I use larue rail clips, so I can feel the top to start the
I re-lased the mineral feeder. This time, my eye was a little closer to the back of the scope and I could not quite see over the top of the turrets. I rechecked the two trees and they matched. So I was lasing targets with the RAPTAR with the UTC clipped on giving me 18x with the H58 reticle. This was the goal !

I need to take it out to the pasture at our highest point, were I can lase a known object at 770yds

Results/Summary: L&S says they will replace the M5B2 turrets I have for the M5C2 turrets for $220. The C2 turrets are lower, I bet I'll be able to see over them. I might do that upgrade. I was thinking about it anyway since I do not like the B2 elevation turret.

kansas

12-11-2017, 12:50 AM

(sorry the RAPTAR is not on the 6.5(18) yet ... I am testing it on the 5.56(18) first ... but the RAPTAR is destined for the 6.5G(18) once I get the process worked out and get a second set of replacement rings)

@John ... I do not experience any POI shift mounting the UTC-x clipon ... that's what I love about it the most !!! And we've run it on both a .300WM(24) and the 6.5G(18) out to 900yds day and night (night the the UTC-x) and no POI shift. The collimating lens on the back of the UTC-x is truly magic!!!

In front of the aimpoints are you referring to UTMs or SKEETs? Those have diopters on the back end right, not collmating lens? If so, that could account for the shift. A purpose built clipon should have a collimating lens on back that can account for variations in alignment between the clipon and the day scope, up to a certain tolerance. The UTC-x is 1.31 center. My rings run from 1.33 center to 1.4 center and those are all working dead on.
==
UTC on the .300WM(24)

https://i.imgur.com/Mt4waoph.jpg

==
UTC on the 6.5G(18)

https://i.imgur.com/4QlWCwQh.jpg

==

... make a bore sight target with various offsets, including your 3 o'clock IR Illuminator/Pointer configuration, which is how we did it for the M4/203s ...

Aye, my PAQ-4C came with a manual and it shows several pages of boresight charts, so I got the idea and I have done this for the lasers on my carbines. But for the RAPTAR I want to "infinity zero" to the reticle. Which means I want to zero the laser pointer to the reticle as far out as I can. Which on my land for a hard known target is going to be 770yds. Once I can get over to a neighbors ranch I'll be able to get out to 1058yds.

kansas

12-21-2017, 04:05 AM

I like the RAPTAR so much, I got two baby brother radiae. One for my shooting buddy and a backup for me.

https://i.imgur.com/zXBe4IZh.jpg

Though the RAPTAR has an ir-laser and the Radius has a viz laser, I zeroed the Radius to the scope reticle using the same process I used for the RAPTAR.

01 - Mount Radius on the 12 o'clock mount over the scope
02 - Activate vis laser in the house.
03 - Co-witness to the scope reticle.
04 - Mount the 14 scope adapter and the PVS-14 on rear of scope.
05 - Move everything out side and setup.
06 - Turn on the 14
07 - Aim at mineral feeder 415 yds away.
08 - co-witness the laser to the scope reticle.
09 - Check the distance = 416yds
10 - Check distance to fence post = 77yds (check)
11 - Check distance to telephone pole = 106yds (check)

It works!

And just like with the RAPTAR, with my eye still on the target, I can see the distance with my other eye without moving.

kansas

02-04-2018, 02:11 PM

Finally got one of the PVS-30 refurbs ... and gave up on trying to get the Federal load of the 130 berger bullets (I want to try those, but can't find them) ... so ordered another 400 ELD and that enables me to shoot up the remaining 200 123 AMAX.

https://i.imgur.com/6u3IAxPh.jpg

Oh, that's the 6.5G(18) on the left with the L&S refurb Mk6 3-18x tremor-3 and the PVS-30 in front.

(the 5.56(18) on the right, with the Burris xtr2 3-15x scr-mil and the BAE UTC-x in front)

kansas

03-17-2018, 11:38 PM

The 6.5G(18) has been taking a rest. I rotate active guns from month to month, mostly due to ammo rationing. I've finally built the 6.5G(18) ammo level up to 1,000+ rounds for the first time and plan to keep it there.

175 rds 123 AMAX
235 rds 123 SST
400 rds 123 ELD
200 rds 130 Berger

So the 6.5G(18) is now back on the active list.

==
https://i.imgur.com/ILIVe0ah.jpg

Scope is L&S 3-18x M5C2 T3. I had the scope rebuilt 2 months ago getting the M5B2 turrets replaced with the M5C2 turrets and the H58 non-illuminateed reticle replaced with Tremor-3 illuminated reticle. Basically a new scope as they replaced everything except the eyebox.

Rings are badger 1.375 center with RAPTAR ring cap on the front ring. And that's a RAPTAR ES on top. I use it solely as a range finder.

I switch the clipons around, but usually have the UTC-x on there as it can see the critters better in the woods around the coop.

I am zeroed at 100yds with the 123 AMAX. I am shooting it up and going with the 130 Berger (Federal load) as my new primary. The 123 SST will remain the Hog hunting round.

kansas

03-17-2018, 11:41 PM

Here is recent report on yote I got with the 6.5G(18) ...

==

2018-03-05
2130-2230
30F
25 MPH W

Goal: Coop overwatch.

Environment: Wind still averaging 25-35 it dies down a bit, then it picks up a bit. Clear skies tonight, Orion to the West.

Equipment: I decided to bring more gun tonight. I am prepping for night walk this coming weekend so using 5.56(10.3) for that, so have it torn down cleaning. So took
6.5G(18), L&S 3-18x T-3, UTC-x RA{TAR. 123 AMAX. M055 Tripod with 322RC2 head.

https://i.imgur.com/ILIVe0ah.jpg

Activity: Went out and setup tripod in the center of the building area. This offers fields of fire in all directions, between all the buildings: 415 meters up hill to the West, 1700 meters to the west, 250 meters to the S and 600 meters to the North. To the East is a wood and I can see critters about 200-250 meters into the woods depending on how large they area.
So, I was scanning about nucing and zooming in and out and checking distances with the RAPTAR and focusing. After about 30mins, I was still scanning and was on 3x so I had the widest FOV. I saw a fairly larger critter moving in the woods. When you see a critter in these woods, you see bits and pieces of it through the gaps in the vegetation so you can't usually tell what it is. I see a lot of deer traversing through there, so I figured it was a deer but it could've been one of my cows, they sometimes move along the banks of the creek back there. I continued to watch, but the critter must have gone behind an embankment about 100 meters into the woods and I could no longer see it. It was heading north towards the alfalfa patch. I scanned back and forth, from where I saw the critter - to the alfalfa patch, waiting to catch a glimpse of it. Eventually it appeared near the fence and approached the fence. I still thought it was a deer, but noted it was a small one. Then it passed through the fence (not over) and in to the open and starting trotting across the alfalfa patch now heading West. I could tell it was a yote by size and trot and tail. I used the "trap" lead. I estimated 110 meters and I was aiming slightly down so I held level with the jaw and fired right before the nose reached my cross hair. The front half of the yote went straight down. I checked the distance with the RAPTAR - it was 141 meters, farther than I thought! Then I took the setup in the house and grabbed the 4-wheeler to go check the yote. The alfalfa patch is on the other side of the creek and across a fence, so easier to get there on the 4-wheeler across bridge thru gate 1/4 mile away.

The entrance wound is on the neck.

https://i.imgur.com/uCFUBIEh.jpg

The exit wound on the shoulder as I was on the critters front left quarter when I fired. The AMAX round still has a nasty exit wound on a yote.

https://i.imgur.com/oFe9urah.jpg

He was a pretty scrawny yote, but it has been a cold winter with 2 weeks of sub 20F weather 24x7 and a week of ice also sub 20F. Distance to the coop from the gun on the tripod was 41 meters, and the yote was about 15 degrees to the right so just over 100 meters from the coop and heading towards the apple orchard in the general direction of the coop, but other side of the creek bed.

Results/Summary: Well 3x was plenty of magnification. But even though I know a lot of distances on my land, once they get out in the alfalfa patch ... an 18 acre flat field, there are few landmarks. I need to learn to push the range button before I shoot, that's why the dang raptar is on there. But this was the first critter I ever shot with it on there and I was focused on the critter. But I was out there practicing with it and checking ranges and seeing them with my support eye while keeping my aiming eye looking thru the scope. It can be done and I was practicing it. Just not once the yote showed up :D

bj139

03-18-2018, 12:01 AM

kansas

03-18-2018, 11:55 AM

kansas

03-18-2018, 09:11 PM

2018-03-18
1200-1500
50F
10 MPF ESE

Goals: 6.5G(18) rezero

Environment: Overcast, small amount of mirage during most of zeroing, then a ton of mirage showed up. Mirage is good and bad. Wind was highly variable in direction and intensity.

Equipment: 6.5G(18), NF 7-35x Tremor-3, 123 AMAX, Bushy AE 1600

Activity: Setup at 91 meters and ran 5 rds off the tripod with the magnetospeed. The avg speed was 2422 with SD 12. Previous 5 rds was 2413 SD 12.5 So I split the difference with 2417 and SD 12.2.
Then zeroed at 100yds prone.

Then went to 500yds (known distance). Throwing dirt up in the high for wind direction. First it blew from 90 off the bullet path. Later it blew from 180 off the bullet path and after that the dirt went straight up and came straight down.
The mirage was boiling.
The orange dots I put in the center of the paper target were jumping around 0.2 mil in the reticle in all directions.
The wind was highly variable in direction and intensity.
AB said 3.7 up and I guess 0.2 right for wind.

First 5 rd group at the paper. Elevation is decent, but wind stringing me out.

https://i.imgur.com/cWxTW8dh.jpg

Then 5 rd group at the steel. I remembered to paint it first.

https://i.imgur.com/LZluNxbh.jpg

Then went to 663 meters (unknown distance lased with Bushy). That's 725yds. AB said up 7.3. Krestrel said 5.5 MPH from 90 degrees off the bullet path or 0.6 right.

I could not see the target prone so switched to tripod sitting.

https://i.imgur.com/MVr8WW7h.jpg

The mirage was still bad.

https://i.imgur.com/uiGxqxdh.jpg

First round the dust was a few inches left and high. I reduced wind hold by .2 and elevation hold by .2 (5 inches) I'm shooting down hill but not sure by how much, but probably enough to make me a little high.

Second rd was hit, repeated, third rd was hit.

Results/Summary: The NF sure is good at seeing the mirage !!! Mirage is good as it gives you a good read on the wind. Mirage is bad because is makes the target jump around and it makes the target fuzzy. Backing off on the magnification reduces the fuzzy a bit. I think I read messing with the parallax can reduce the jumping around, but I messed with the parallax and I didn't see the jumping around stop. Will go hunt for those words.